Episode 002: Where Did it All go so Wrong?

Hannah: Hello and welcome back to the In the Business of Purpose Podcast with your hosts: I'm Hannah Donovan,

Romina: and I'm Romina Kwong.

Hannah: Join us for real honest conversations, personal stories and a little bit of heartache as well as a lot of hope. We do our best to keep doom and gloom out of these conversations because nobody has time for that these days. Each episode, we'll break down the bullshit billionaire narrative from a different angle and talk about how we as consumers, employees and business owners dig ourselves out of this scary time of climate change, inequality and injustice. We love sharing examples, as well as actions we can all use to help us shift away from business as usual, toward a brighter and more inclusive future.

Romina: Everyone is welcome here. Businesses big and small, employees hungry to catalyze change, and consumers who want to understand how to vote with their wallets. Now let's dive in and today's episode.

Romina: All right, so welcome back to another episode of In the business of purpose. Today, we're gonna be asking the question, where did it all go so wrong. And unless you've been living under a rock, you may have noticed there are quite a few issues we are facing globally at the moment. Whether it's extreme temperatures we've been experiencing around the world, the flooding in Pakistan, the passing of Queen Elizabeth II, or even the lack of access to clean drinking water for our Indigenous communities right here in Canada, or the escalating acts of racism, it's really hard to know what to focus on and where the solutions are going to be coming from. But the stream of bad news coming from our phones and TVs 24 hours a day, if you're not overwhelmed, you're probably not paying attention, which to be honest, we wouldn't blame you for.

Hannah: And if you're like us and daydream about creating a better future, you know that there are some days where you just want to lay down on the floor and give up, which we will admit we both have done quite a lot over the past few years. However, we have decided we are not going to take this laying down. We know that there's strength in numbers, it's why we are building this community (In the Business of Purpose), and individual citizens have made big waves in the past. And we, yes, as humans are the only hope of getting out of this because we are the also the ones who got us into this. So, we need to work together. And by we we mean individuals, of course, but also small businesses, large, large corporations and the government. So in today's episode, we're going to share why we care, which is the foundation we return to on those laying down on the floor days, as well as the failures in the current capitalist model, which has played a big role in leading us to where we are today. As well as defining, you know, the role of individuals versus the role of corporations and what their responsibilities are, because that's a really important distinction. So let's dive in.

Romina: Alright, so Hannah and I really want to strip things back. We believe that if you build a solid foundation, it then becomes your anchor to return to when you veer off course, aka those lying on the floor days. And that foundation really includes your values, which we'll chat about in future episode, but most importantly, your why? Why do you care? Why are you doing this work? So Hannah, what is your why?

Hannah: Well, I've lots of why's. I mean, personally, there's you know, family, and I also love the planet. I think it's absolutely gorgeous. And I would be so sad to see anything happen to it. But I believe very much in the Indigenous concept of the Seventh Generation principle. So the idea that the decisions that we make today should result in sustainable world for seven generations into the future or I mean, ideally more. So this concept is based on the ancient philosophy of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, also known as the Iroquois. It's really just the very or I should say, fairly simple idea that we're not the first and we're not the last people to inhabit this planet. We're only stewards, we're here to take care of it and then pass it on to the next generations to enjoy. And I think we veered quite significantly off track with that. We're all guilty of it. And this sort of like instant gratification space that we've moved into, this idea of disposable items. And also because Mother Nature is so powerful and that it regenerates in such beautiful ways, I think we forget, like, this isn't just an infinite resource that we have access to, like, forever, no matter what we do. It's reciprocal. We need to and that's very much an Indigenous teaching as well, we need to reciprocate with the Earth, like with the planet. And make sure that like we're putting in and taking out and you know, regenerating all of those good things. So that in like, on a base level, is my why. I try my best to live these principles every day, both personally and professionally. And, you know, in regards to veering off track, I for sure veer off track, it's hard. I think COVID was a huge veering off track moment for me, because I'd really kicked.

Romina: For so many of us.

Hannah: Yeah, yeah, I really kicked my sustainability journey, my personal sustainability journaling journey, sorry, into high gear before that. And when COVID and everything else became so overwhelming, like, what are we going to do for work, there was so much fear, I just couldn't handle also trying to like fight for the planet and reduce my waste and all that. So there's no shame here. It is so easy to veer off track. But that's that anchor that I come back to what decisions can I make? Not just for myself, but for others? And yeah, it's hard, make no mistake. What about you Romina, whats your why?

Romina: Mine is very similar. It's always been like, I want to preserve his planet, despite like me personally, not necessarily wanting children. It's having an earth and planet to support all the people like my friends and family who do want children, who have had recently had children, for them to be able to enjoy and see the world as much as like, we talk about carbon emissions being so bad, especially flying, but it's like there's so many beautiful parts of the world. And I want to see that, like I want it to be still there and still see them, while simultaneously doing my part. I think also, with the resurgence of social justice issues, like Black Lives Matter, and that sort of thing. Like my why there is just holding so many various different identities myself, and how they all are so interconnected. Just coming from a place of curiosity, and always wanting to know how I can make others feel more comfortable, and accepted or included in a space, whether physically or virtually, or just even in a one on one conversation. Like I never want someone to feel uncomfortable. And because I've been in so many places where I felt deeply uncomfortable. And so I'm trying my best in various ways, whether it's personal and in business, well both really, to do that. So whether it is through my values of like accessibility, or intersectional environmentalism, it's just yeah, figuring out how I can make things more inclusive and have people feel comfortable. I think is it is what it is at the end of the day.

Hannah: Yeah, that's really beautiful. And it actually reminds me of something A friend sent me the other day, which has really resonated with me and kind of shifted some of my core personal values into like a different light. And she said, basically, her mission in life is to make sure everyone coming into contact with her feels like they belong. And like that is how she walks around every day. And that resonated with me so much, because I think all of us as human beings go on a journey of belonging, we try to belong when we start school, and, you know, playground politics, and then we tried to belong in all the different social circles we're a part of throughout our lives, and it's a constant balancing act. It's trying to figure out like, I think when you were younger, you tried to belong, and step outside yourself. And then as you get older, you try to be yourself and belong and, you know, Brene Brown talks a lot about this and has a beautiful book actually, on it. But that similarly, when we're looking at the social side of corporate social responsibility, but also just generally in life is like, how do you make people feel comfortable and I think in a way that's making sure everyone feels like they can belong, if they want to in this space. And so, you know, that is also a big why of like, why do we talk about how to meet individual needs in the workplace? Why do why is accessibility so, so important on your website, in your physical spaces? Because everyone should feel like they step into a space and they can find belonging. So yeah, that's you really nailed it there the feeling comfortable, making sure people feel comfortable. Ah, so many, many things we can do to shift.

Romina Yeah. And then I guess, like from there. It's also we've mentioned, like talking about working within this system of capitalism. And I think you found a good quote, referring to that.

Hannah: Yes, this quote, I think it just like, you know, when you find you read something, and you're like, Oh, my goodness, all the thoughts that have been floating around my head, and the things that I've been trying to like, put into words, all of a sudden someone's in my brain, like,

Romina: And they did it.

Hannah: That makes me yes, yeah. So this is one of those moments for me. So Toi Smith, who is the founder of Loving Black Single Mothers and the Co-Facilitator of the Spell of Capitalism, which you can find on on Instagram, highly recommend giving them a follow. But she has this amazing quote, "We have been taught that the only way to make more money is to pay people less so that we can make more. Capitalism is all about using other people's labour to help us create a surplus, and then not sharing that surplus with those who created it. This is the undercurrent of all business teachings." And when we talk about corporate social responsibility, being better in our businesses in environmental and social ways, a lot of mine and Romina's conversations. The thread leads back to capitalism and its current iteration. I want to be very clear, as we dive into this conversation about capitalism, there was a reason it sort of darkened, and there were positives about it. I think we've gotten to a space now where the responsibility and the accountability is no longer in place in terms of certain laws, regulations, tax rules, that have allowed this kind of system to grow into, you know, what Toi, so beautifully captured there, which is one that doesn't it that puts profit first, and doesn't actually share that amongst the people who are creating the opportunity for the profit. So maybe Romina, you want to chat a little bit about what your kind of biggest issue that you take with the current capitalist model?

Romina: Well, obviously, there's the environmental aspect, where it's just about finding the cheapest resources, whether it's locally or internationally. And just extracting the resources for the product, let's stick with products, it's a little easier conceptually to think about. And taking advantage, taking resources to make the cheapest thing that you can and sell it for profit, and not really understanding or thinking about the impact on the physical environment. So mining resources, or cutting down trees, or it's it was the focus has always been on how can I do this as quickly, as efficiently as possible to make the most money and not having the consideration that we talked about from the Indigenous learnings of how do we take from the earth, but make sure that like, we're not destroying it completely, you know? So that's one. And then second is also within that is taking advantage and finding those shortcuts within that supply chain. And not just with materials, but with labour as well, like so much like for something to be made in China doesn't necessarily mean that it has a bad reputation. I know at a certain point in time, it did - a lot of like, sweatshops, child labour was being taken advantage of because it could because the cost of living and pay abroad in Asia is a lot cheaper than it is in North America. But I do you want to flag that, now there are actually great factories in China that aren't necessarily like terrible working conditions. So that is something to keep in mind. But generally, the reason why we have those thoughts and ideas is because of this system that we have where let's find the cheapest thing that we can take advantage of within the supply chain with labor, with materials. And then that way you can pay the CEO and shareholders a lot more or stakeholders, I guess, a lot more than everyone else who's like working for you. But yeah, what about you, Hannah?

Hannah: Yeah, I mean, I think of the biggest issue I take is, is again, going back to that, quote, I read earlier, and it's like, around this idea of diminishing rather than enhancing people's quality of life. And that, that has many, like, offshoots that I could go into, but but this concept of not sharing the rewards fairly, is something that I really, really struggle with. But also like that the systems don't aren't set up to mark success outside of profit. And I know that that is shifting, I mean, we have ESG, and a lot of

Romina: B-Corp has started.

Hannah: Yeah, and investors are looking at these metrics, when they make these kinds of decisions. But I think that the shift needs to be more outside the parameters of like, investors making these decisions, it needs to be like a, at the core of the concept of success and capitalism, like what we need to redefine what that means to everyone so that businesses can feel good and successful, to be honest, focusing not just on profits, because profits are still important, we're not going to sit here and say, like, every company should be a not for profit, or that that shouldn't be the focus. Obviously, you're building a business in order to make money. That that is, you know,

Romina: It's the discrepancy between how much the CEOs are making versus like, the factory workers. Like, it shouldn't be that great. Because without those factory workers, you wouldn't have a business. You need them to help run the business, right? So it's like they're such a key component. And I think that's where we both like, are mad and struggle with is just why is it's so huge, right? Like some of the largest corporations, only now are they like, some of the factory workers kept unionizing so that they can fight for better working conditions.

Hannah: And not just why is it so huge, but why is it so accepted? Like why are we okay with this?

Romina: Yes!

Hannah: And I'm sorry, that's not the right word, because we are not okay with it. But why does it keep happening? Like, where's the accountability? Why can people get away with doing this? And like, yes, there are some very simple answers to that. But more generally, like, why are our people not held accountable when they're making these decisions, when they're focusing on profit for shareholders, and like, it's the, you know, C suite executives, and not not having that trickle down. Because there are examples of companies that do trickle down and do change policies, and it works very well. But the issue I take also is not just that gap, but also like, why are we measuring success only as profits? Why are we not looking at the success of employee retention? Satosfaction? Mental health and wellness of employees? Also, like, from an environmental standpoint of waste reduction, like why are those not just as important, if not more important? But something I wanted to mention, actually, before I get too far off topic when you're speaking to like, you know, supply chain issues and shortcuts and like kind of, like, pulling resources of the planet without a like, long term plan. Patagonia does this so well, in terms of they, they like started their why from the very beginning of the company,

Romina: And stuck to it.

Hannah: And stuck to it. And that is such because it's so easy to veer off course, it's so easy to start because most people start a business

Romina: With good intentions.

Hannah: With great intentions out of passion, especially if it's their first business or they're early on. Because they see a problem, they want to fix it. They have values that they haven't found are met in their other, you know, work scenarios that they've experienced so far. And so Yvon Chouinard is an amazing example and obviously the team around him of like how having a why. And then building the business around that why, rather than building a business and inserting some reasons and values along the way. Like the book, Let My People Go Surfing, I recommend anyone who's interested in this kind of discussion around corporate social responsibility, circular economy, supply chain, how we can be better for people and the planet, especially people in culture, and how we can improve there within companies. That book was amazing and so inspiring to be like, oh, you can anchor to your why and like, not veer off it. And like, you know, it took a while, they are now a very successful company, but like it was small beginnings, but they just didn't compromise. And they've created the system, which now people look to all over the world as best practices within their operations, and then marketing, which has resulted in like, great customer satisfaction, great employee satisfaction, profits, and you know, like, success for people on the planet. So I think that's a really good example. If anyone's interested in learning more about what you were speaking to there like, if not, yeah, just trying to plan it for personal gain.

Romina: And I actually want to go back to what you were saying about, like, employee satisfaction is. Maybe it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean closing the income gap all the way between the CEO and their workers, but it's like, what sort of health and dental benefits can you provide, and resources for your employees, so maybe you're not spending my own 10s of 1000s of dollars on therapy, but you're giving me 10s of 1000's of dollars access to therapy. Like, I feel like there could be some sort of balance and sort of shift where it's like, if I have access to all of these things for not just myself, but like, my family, then, like, there's just better balance like that work-life balance that we continuously try to strive for, but like not. And I feel like, the reason why it's so difficult is because of the way the system is currently set up, where you are expected to be accessible 24/7 when even when you're on vacation. So I think it's just like just more like parental leave time, vacation time, like just better boundaries, and just better internal, like policies that can be so easily changed, that won't necessarily cost you money.

Hannah: And that's such a good point. Because, like, policies that are not just like textbook HR policies that you're supposed to have in place, like a workplace harassment policy, and, you know, those are like kind of that bare minimum of like, keep because

Romina: It's required by law.

Hannah: Exactly. Because it keeps people feeling safe in the workplace and such but like, where can you, where can you create policies

Romina: Go above and beyond.

Hannah: Yeah, go above and beyond and create policies that speak to the kind of environment you're trying to foster? Like, can you look at your, you know, your dress code, and make sure that it's more inclusive. I did a with Bloom Academy, a diversity equity inclusion in the workplace program recently, and they have a menstruation policy.

Romina: I love that.

Hannah: And within their business, which is amazing. And it's like, it speaks to time off, I believe, and then also they provide, like a stipend every month to purchase menstrual items. And it's for everyone. So even if you're a person who doesn't menstruate, you can use that, you can buy items and donate them to a local shelter. You can buy them for your family, whatever that looks like. But these are like these policies that, like you said, you don't necessarily have to provide a stipend, but maybe it's you provide some time off, or you just have it out there so the conversation isn't as like taboo. So you can start especially as a small business, looking at what your, what policies you could put in place that take time, of course to write and research that don't cost additional money. But that make people feel more included and safe in the workplace. And that can go that can make such a big difference. So exactly what you're speaking to you there, Romina, it's not just about closing the income gap, which is something that needs to be addressed in general.

Romina: Yeah, simultaneously.

Hannah: Simultaneously, because there's no way that we can, should be having like multi billionaires on this planet and people who can't feed their children. Like that's, that's just absolutely wild to me. But there's other ways to close this gap and to create community and to have people feel safe and comfortable and have them feel like they belong and included and, and all of this stems back to your why. So if you and this is something that we really encourage everyone listening to do, take some time to think about what is your why, you know there could be lots of them, but like, what's that core why for you? Like I said, for me, it's like the Seventh Generation Principle. And making people feel belong, like they belong, sorry. And that then allows me each time I'm making a decision in business and sit here and pretend like I do this every single time I make a decision. There's some decisions that have to be made, because bills have to be paid. But I can think about, okay, is this project that I'm taking on meeting my why? Like, am I still moving that forward? And for the times where that goes off course, it then allows me to bring it back and say, okay, I'm not really addressing this why here, by engaging in this project. So maybe I pass on this one, or maybe I need to refocus over here. So like that foundation is so so important. It's so important.

Romina: Yeah, I agree.

Hannah: So last question here. And I think it kind of very much like is this flow through which probably those listening will start to see that like, there threads of like, everything we've talked about so far is very similar. But there are so many global challenges out there to care about like, it's overwhelming. It's like, when you have this insanely long to-do list, and you can't focus on anything. You're just like, overwhelmed, you're letting from thing to thing. And then you realize four hours later, you haven't actually done anything.

Romina: Because you've been lying on the floor.

Hannah: In complete overwhelm. But which one, do you find yourself focusing on most? And what has you feeling positive about the future

Romina: The thing that I think I focus on, I guess, more personally, and then of course, in my business too, is waste reduction is like first and foremost, I think I always stick with the first R's in the three R's of Reduce, Reuse recycle of, where can I have impact in reducing, because it's not necessarily going to cost me more money, or more resources that I may not necessarily have access to. But what can we reduce that actually, also usually minimizes my spending also. Right? Like less buying less takeout this week means less money spent and less plastic waste, right? So that's where I like focus on is like, personally, like, what is more tangible, and what can I work on. And going back to like my value, both personally and in business is accessibility and making people feel comfortable and feel accepted and included. And I think it most recently, like made me feel really good was when I had a client reach out to me saying, like, I really want to work with you, not necessarily from an eco-friendly standpoint, because it's a virtual event they wanted support with but because of my values of accessibility. It is a event on navigating adult neurodiversity, and they were like, it really resonated with me that even though you aren't necessarily a person that identifies as somebody who's neurodivergent, it is something that you care about, that you are wanting to learn about. And work with people who do identify with that identity. I need another word, but. So those are the two things that I'm currently focusing on. And I feel like that's always changing. In that I don't have just those two values, there are, there's a long list of them that I always try to focus on like three to five. Hint hint, if you haven't taken our values workshop that will help you get there as well. And I feel like it rotates between those five, constantly. It's just like, what is easy and accessible to me right now that I can take action towards? What is my body saying like I can, and up to doing? Or maybe I am going back to lying down on the floor and figuring out okay, why do I care about this when I'm feeling frustrated? So those are the two things that has me feeling positive about the future. But yeah, that's what I'm currently focusing on as we record this episode.

Hannah: Amazing. And yeah. I just, I love the idea of like taking the global challenges you're stressed about or worried about or feel personally connected to because that's obviously a really important part, and then kind of like, like rolling that back into like, okay, what are my values then and then how do those fit in. And that's something a little preview for next episode, if that's something you're interested in learning a bit more about, definitely tune in, because we'll be we'll be diving deeper. But in terms of like, the biggest global challenge that I am frustrated by these days, and I find, I think, if we tackled, could see a lot of changes is, and this is so broad, but injustice. So injustice in like, kind of all of its forms, and it, it's everywhere, it's in the income gap, it's in the, you know, in our politics, it's when you think about decisions, like Roe V Wade being made, it's injustice there, it's it's in the acts of racism that have been popping up for centuries. And for some reason don't seem to be getting better, even though our education and our understanding has changed significantly over the decades. The injustice of not have, if you have a physical or a neurological disability, that you can't access everything the same way those of us who are, you know, in fully abled bodies can. And like, that is such like such an injustice to me. And I could go on and on, the injustice of have just so many things not having clean drinking water in some of our Indigenous communities. It's it's everywhere. And then how do you know, that is sort of like my fuel to like, how do we go into spaces and create more of that, equality inclusivity, accessibility, belonging that could tackle that this sort of massive issue, that is injustice. Because when you put it like that, it's like, overwhelming and you are like, I don't even know where to start. But But you, if you drill down, there's, there's solutions everywhere, and there are people all over the world working towards it. So yeah, that's, that's sort of mine. And I would say in terms of feeling positive about the future, I do think that COVID has actually really shifted that for me. Now, that's a personal journey, as well as like what I'm seeing out in the world, I took time to slow down during COVID, I took time to really look at my own mental health. And my, the way I work, the way I interacted with people, what I prioritized, and that really helped with a positive, more positive mindset. But also the fact that like, I think a lot of other people also did that.

Romina: Yeah, I think we see that specifically here in Toronto is the slow return of people back into the office, like nobody wants to go back or very few. I would say the majority of the people that I know who work in the corporate world, they say like the one day going to work I'm exhausted. Whereas like when I work from home, I'm so much more productive I get more things done like like they're actually more productive in their roles, which I find so fascinating and but then it's sometimes it is nice to see their colleagues in person. So I feel like that shift has also like ultimately been forced on a lot of corporations because they realized, well, our employees can actually work from home and still the business can run. And so I think it's a struggle now to figure out, are they coming back? Are they not? What do we do? It's so interesting

Hannah: How do we make it worthwhile for them to come back? That's a whole other discussion of like, it is company's responsibility to make return to work, worth it. There is extra work that has to be put in there but like, what are you enticing your employees with?

Romina: So yeah, policies going back to those like internal policies right, like how do you change it up? How do you yeah, like maybe it's adding more fun events.

Hannah: There's so many ways to do it. And like, what I just think the boundaries that and I have these discussions with my friends all the time, but the boundaries and the space and the priorities that we found during COVID. Like, those aren't going anywhere. And that's what gives us such a positive outlook about the future is because we've just, we've all collectively gone through something that will that has changed us forever. Unfortunately, it has been incredibly painful for a lot of people and incredibly motivating as to like what do we want to see in the future, not just from like a practical point of view that like climate change is a huge influence on these kinds of epidemics and pandemics happening more often. And I think a lot of people are very fearful of going back to what we experienced in 2020 and 2021. But also from like, oh, I saw the other side and I like it. And I don't know that I'm gonna go back to pre-pandemic even if that was an option, which I don't think it is. So there's that there's that like fight and people to fight for this new way of life. And, you know, we all get busy we all get caught up and sometimes that means a little bit, but there's just something there. There's a fire of learning that that motivates people to continue forward. And that's something that I'm feeling really positive about for sure.

Romina: I also wanted to kind of just before we end to share this, like tweet that I saw. So it's from @ladyofsardines, and they said, "It can be overwhelming to witness/experience/take in all the injustices of the moment. The good news is that they're all connected. So if you're a little corner of work involves pulling out one of the threads, you're helping to unravel the whole damn cloth." And I feel like that's such a great summary of what we're talking about, is figuring out what is your why and working on that thread. As we try to collectively unravel the whole cloth of all the injustices and climate change and problems that we witness, every day around the world.

Hannah: Oh my gosh, I could that was like the perfect summary because part I think of the guilt that comes in when you try to focus on something is like but what about all the other issues? What about all the other things I want to help everyone I want everyone to feel better and have a better quality of life and all of that, but like, that's where the laying on the floor happens because you've taken on too much. So trust that there's someone else working on the other things you care about and collectively we're going to, we're all going to make a difference because everything's interconnected. I love that so much. Yeah, I feel emotional.

Romina: Yeah, so now that we've discussed or dissected the problems, really within capitalism and the systems the next logical thing would be to bring in solutions. So if you try to tackle all of the things that you care about at once, it often ends in no action at all, as we've just mentioned, and you definitely hide from these issues that you care about all together, like we've both done in the last couple of years. However, in our experience, there is that in between stage so what we found that works really well is drilling down on those values, connecting them to the causes you care about, and then using those values to really anchor in and to continuously come back to them to keep your work on track. So before we get into solutions, we want you to join us for our next episode, where we'll talk about values, how to define them, how to action them within your business and to keep up the momentum towards collectively creating a better future.

Hannah: Because we are all in this together. And that is one of the reasons that we started this podcast because it can feel so lonely and hard when you are in a space of fear and panic over what our future looks like. And there are so many people out there doing so many great things and positive news cycle is something we really want to bring in. We'll be bringing in in future episodes to motivate all of us, our me and Romina included. Keep trucking on. So thank you so much for joining us today and remember to subscribe and leave a review if you like what you heard. It's really helpful to us and we'll see you next time.

Romina: Bye!