Episode 001: Get to Know Us

In this episode, we spend time introducing ourselves, talking about what we struggle with in the Corporate Social Responsibility Space and our hopes for the future. Have a listen and get to know us before we dig into Season 1.

We'd love to hear from you, what are you pet peeves in this space? What questions and challenges would you like us to tackle in future episodes? Email us at hello@inthebusinessofpurpose.com. We'd love to hear from you.

Transcript

Hannah: Hello and welcome back to the In the Business of Purpose Podcast with your hosts, I'm Hannah Donovan,

Romina: and I'm Romina Kwong

Hannah: Join us for real honest conversations, personal stories and a little bit of heartache as well as a lot of hope. We do our best to keep doom and gloom out of these conversations because nobody has time for that these days. Each episode, we'll break down the bullshit billionaire narrative from a different angle and talk about how we as consumers, employees and business owners dig ourselves out of this scary time of climate change, inequality and injustice. We love sharing examples, as well as actions we can all use to help us shift away from business as usual, toward a brighter and more inclusive future.

Romina:Everyone is welcome here. Businesses big and small, employees hungry to catalyze change, and consumers who want to understand how to vote with their wallets. Now, let's dive in today's episode!

Hannah: Romina, today is our very first episode of In the Business of Purpose!
I am feeling pretty excited to get started.

Romina Me too. So I just want to say hello to all of our listeners, and to welcome you into our space into our community. But let's start with a bit of context. So Hannah and I have actually known each other for several years now, we first connected through a mutual colleague working in the events industry. And then we ended up having a very passionate and lengthy exchange of how we did and did not want to run our businesses in the current climate. After many similar conversations between the two of us, we knew we couldn't possibly be alone in these feelings. We know that there's a lot of strength in numbers and we wanted to build a community that could support each other as we collectively disrupted and reimagine the model of success of business. By shifting things away from a singular, profit centered approach to one that also encompasses ethics, transparency, and inclusion alongside profit. Oh, and also stops hurting the environment. That's a pretty big one for us here. So here we are, over a year after co creating In the Business of Purpose, which is now a conscious community, an educational platform.

Hannah: Yes, and we host workshops, we offer online learning opportunities, and we facilitate community discussions. And now we have a podcast too! All of this supports our values of knowledge sharing and education. And if you happen to be interested in learning more, keep listening as well as you can check us out at inthebusinessofpurpose.com. Where we have a newsletter, we have a Slack group where we keep each other accountable, because community is key. So yeah, I have been really lucky to get to know Romina quite well throughout the past few years, but I'm sure our listeners would like to get to know you as well Romina. So do you want to give us a little introduction. 

Romina: Yeah, so as Hannah mentioned, my name is Romina, I use she/her pronouns. And my journey started with my bachelor's degree in Environmental Studies, Economics and International Development. And then I ended up going back to school to get a diploma in event management and side story is actually because I thought that I wanted to do events and it was because I was a bridesmaid for a friend's wedding. And I realized in that same experience that I was NOT doing any sort of wedding whatsoever, but maybe another type of event. So I then combined my educational background of environmental studies and the event management and founded Eco-Friendly Events. Because I noticed such a gap between the events industry and environmental justice and so Eco-Friendly Events is a consulting agency that supports event organizers and businesses by translating company wide sustainability goals into accessible and realistic green initiatives at their events.

Hannah: I love it. And I'm Hannah, I also use she/her pronouns and I am the founder of Lovedey, which is a consultancy that partners with businesses to incorporate sustainability and social objectives into their strategies. I help companies reach their belief driven goals to grow with more than just profit in mind, which is a theme that will come up a lot throughout these conversations as you'll see. After decade, over a decade actually of conceptualizing and executing large scale events for global event producers, I'm now using my experience to address the challenges we face as a global community. I also have a BA in International Development, African Studies and Social Studies of medicine from McGill University. And I'm constantly on a quest to expand my knowledge with courses like the Women of Ontario Social Entrepreneur Network, also known as WOSEN, their Grow program, as well as Loom Academy's diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace course, which I recommend to anyone interested in expanding their knowledge in that area. So I love personally hearing people's catalyst stories, the moments that got them to where they are today, because I think it really humanizes the journey. And I think maybe Shall we share ours? Romina? Do you want to go first?

Romina: Sure. So kind of to backtrack, before I even did my bachelor's degree, which I also happen to study at McGill University, so I guess we shared that as well, Hannah. But it was actually in grade four. So my parents work for Panasonic and they hosted this Energy Star competition. So every grade had a different sort of like task. So kindergarteners had to like draw a picture and then people in high school had to write like multi page essay. So for me, it was grade four it was like a one page paper, I think there was a drawing also. And I actually ended up winning that competition!

Hannah: Nice work!

Romina: And that really kind of sparked, I guess, my love for the environment and caring about energy conservation and that sort of thing. And then from there, it was in grade 12 in like October/November, when I didn't really know what I wanted to do in university. I was like, well, I have to go because my parents said so but like what am I going to study. And it was in world issues that that we had a unit on in, like climate change. I really loved that course and everything about it all the different topics. But it was really the environmental studies that stuck out for me. So that is what I ended up applying to and studying at McGill. And then combine that with my love of economics and international development. Because as we'll dive into this podcast, the are also interconnected and related in some way. You can't really care about one without the other. And initially, I wanted to do environmental law, like I just want to be this lawyer and realized that it was NOT the route for me. Especially learning that within environmental law, at least in Canada, it was either you're going to work for the government where I found it was just like too slow moving. Or you worked for a big oil company out in Alberta trying to get around these laws, so that they continue doing what they were doing. And that was obviously something that was not in alignment with me and my values. So that it's just kind of ended there. And then yeah, after my degree, I mentioned I was a bridesmaid for this friend's wedding and was like dabbling into the events industry. And so I ended up going back to events. And then yeah, combining my two sort of like passions, and finding a way to tackle support, like tackling like climate change and figuring out ways how I can support in my own way that wasn't necessarily research, but something that was more like hands on and like, visibly impactful. And that's really where my story started and continues to grow, from there. But what about you, Hannah? How does your story go?

Hannah: I love that story. I've heard it a couple times, but I like hearing it every time. Okay well, mine also started back in school in high school. I started the Youth Action Organization at my high school. So really kind of dove into some current world issues through that. And I similarly took World Issues in grade 11. And it really shifted my perspective, because at the time, I was sort of obsessed with sciences. I was gonna go to university for biochemistry, I wanted to become a forensic scientist before all that NCIS you know, came out or at least I knew about it, I should say. And I then started sort of thinking, okay, well, if I really love world issues so much and talking about what's going on outside of our, you know, our like, backyard kind of thing. You know, I should maybe open up my scope a little bit of where I'm gonna go or what I'm gonna go to university for. So I applied everywhere for arts and science, just to keep my options open. And I only got into McGill for arts and I realized once I got in that I really wanted to go there. I thought Montreal would be a great match for me.

Romina: It's such a great city!

Hannah: It's SUCH a good city! I had THE best university experience it was just Yeah, it was so good. And I like I mourned my university experience for like years after I graduated, I just loved it so much. And yeah, Montreal was perfect for me. And like, that's the thing about you know, going away to university, you're discovering so much about yourself, but everywhere, like everyone needs something different. And that's what I needed at the time. And so that kind of made my decision for me of what I ended up studying. So I, you know, like I mentioned before, I studied International Development, African Studies, Social Studies of Medicine, really opened my eyes to so much of like, what was going on in the world, the evolution of international development as a area of study, which has its own controversies. And when I graduated university, and sort of as I was coming up for graduation, I was like, I'm going to work for the WHO, or the UN, some NGO somewhere, it's going to be so wonderful. And then reality hit, I had no money, I needed to get a job. I was living back with my parents. And I fell into events. And I really did fall into it. I went to do like a two week contract at an events company. Just to help cover off the gap. And here I am, 15 years later, still, working in events are a little less than 15 years later, I'm aging myself there. And I've loved working in events, I think it's been a really great space to explore, like, I find running an event and I don't know if you agree with this Romina, or sorry, planning an event is like almost like setting up a mini business every time you did the event. Because you have to delve into marketing.

Romina: It's like a mini world. Yeah, like it's a controlled environment, almost. Because you, you have so many things that you create, like even the physical space, like fencing off. Yeah, like, like an outdoor space, for example. It's like a miniature world

Hannah: Yeah, and you do like, it parallels a little bit of all the things you'd have to set up when you're starting a business or when you're like working through that when it looks goes to marketing and sales, and branding, and, you know, suppliers and resourcing and all that. So I loved it. But then I was in the tech booth at an event in the fall of 2019. And one of the AV team there, we were sort of calling the show together. And he worked, his day job was in sustainable energy. And he was talking about the IPCC report that had just come out. And I was like, what is this? Like what are you talking about? And he sort of told me all about the fact that this report had come out and it was really talking about like, how kind of screwed we are, like, with climate change, and how we're really nearing irreversible damage. We need to make changes within the next decade in order to kind of save ourselves from ourselves. And I just spiralled. I had a major existential crisis, I lay in bed at night, just like wondering, I can't move to Mars, like that's not a that's not an option. Can I have kids? Like, is it fair to bring kids into this world, there was so much fear and panic that I kind of worked through, and then I was like, okay, well, I might as well spend my time on this earth trying to contribute. Yeah, to changing this instead of just lying in bed with sweaty palms at night. So I was like I'll pivot Lovedey to eco-friendly event planning, Romina and I actually did some work on like creating a checklist for my clients on how we can be more eco-friendly. And then COVID hit, our favourite. In the hospitality industry, well I mean, it really affected everyone all over the world. But I realized that well, first of all, all events went virtual. So there was no such thing as in person events at the time to make more eco-friendly. And, you know, it just gave me more time to think. And I wanted to kind of go broader, and while making events more sustainable, both environmentally and socially, are really important to me. I also wanted to look at how like, why they're not net and like, how can we actually use businesses on a whole to address some of these challenges that may be our current bureaucratic systems you know, government systems are not addressing to our to the degree that we need to, in order to dig ourselves out. So yeah, that's sort of like what's led me to here and opened up all these questions about capitalism. And, you know, it's for a while, served us really well but, you know, how can we use it

Romina: I would disagree, it didn't serve us very well, it served a select few very well, for a long time. 

Hannah: I think yes, no and you're right. And I think when I say that, I mean, way back when, you know, the industrial, like, you know, revolution, everything started off. It was from my understanding, I wasn't that there, but there was good, there were good intentions of how you know, a capitalist system when it comes to economics would make things more prosperous. Now, where we've gotten to, is that fact exactly what you just said, Romina. It is serving a small majority and leaving a small minority, sorry, and leaving a large majority wondering like, WTF are we going to do? So? We'll have lots more conversations about that, I'm sure. But I'm wondering maybe if we can chat about what our biggest pet peeves are in the corporate social responsibility space. Do you want to kick us off with that one?

Romina: Yeah, I guess I'll continue with sort of capitalism in general, and how it does serve a select few. Because the people who put these systems in place the people who held the power, who, for the most part, still continue to hold that power, are CIS heteronormative white men, and they built these systems for themselves, right? Like why? Like, when you think about it, why wouldn't somebody not build something for to better themselves or to make put them in a better situation? I mean, depending on the type of person you are, but that's, I think the most frustrating part is that these systems were put in place, and we've kind of have to work within this system. And it's so frustrating, because as much as we as in Hannah, and I, and I'm sure those of you who are listening, want to dismantle these systems, want to change it, but we still at the same time have to work within it. Yeah, I think it's really frustrating. I think another thing, especially with regards to environmental sustainability and CSR, a lot of bigger corporations may have the right intention, like they do want to do a lot of good things, but because of the lack of information or misinformation, there's so much greenwashing or they're doing it just to show face, or they're doing it because it's the trendy thing to do. Especially when in 2020, when the resurrection or like, reignited passion for Black Lives Matter came back. And all these things came up, it was just like, like, sometimes I feel like they had good intentions. Sometimes they don't, and I just like, they're just not doing it, quote, unquote, right, in that they're not taking the time to have all these considerations to do it right. Or to own up to their mistakes. It's just like, they want to present this beautiful image of themselves, that they're doing good things, but then they're not actually doing good things. And this is definitely something we're gonna dive into in a future episode, but definitely a huge frustration for me in this area.

Hannah:Yeah. And almost to take that a step further, because I think that is like, it's such a nuanced conversation, because we are very much, you know, supporters of like progress over perfection here at In the Business of Purpose. It's something that Romina and I talk about all the time that it's like, the pressure of getting things like 100%, right are going to stop you from doing anything. And that's like, in general, but but very much so in the corporate social responsibility space, because there are so many eyes, and there is so much criticism on what people are and aren't doing. And we, you know, we will use examples where we criticize what some companies are doing or that they're not doing enough. And I think that it's like, not necessarily about not trying, it's about the like, how is it seeping into all the areas of your business? Like, how are you showing up each day, in every, you know, every department every space saying, we care, and we really want to do the right thing, versus what you just mentioned there, Romina you know, which ends up being performative. When it's like,

Romina: Oh, we're just marketing or something.

Hannah: Yeah, we're gonna use this for marketing. And but we're not having the conversations outside of that, that needs to happen so that like, everyone's on the same page, so that the employees are feeling like they matter, in the same way that the company is talking about, you know, the issue that matters outwardly does it also matter in internally, you know, like, it's, it's all interconnected, like you said earlier, and it's very hard to take a company seriously when they are cherry picking what they're going to do. And unfortunately, that cherry picking often is what makes them look the best, which is notas a broad concept, necessarily a bad thing, because that is what you know, that is how you get people to buy your product. But are you doing that from a place of authenticity or a place of everyone else is doing it, we better get on board. So you know, exactly one line of eco-friendly products, but when we don't care about the rest of the store, or the rest of them, anyways, I in terms of pet peeves, I have a lot of space. But I think in general, it's like really about this concept of like how business is conducted and like what we consider success in business. So the number one thing would be like the lack of appropriate distribution of profits and resources back into a company. Really

Romina: Mmmm.. Yeah that's a big one

Hannah: Yeah, that idea of like, how we have come to prioritize shareholders, over all other stakeholders in the company over employees over, you know, suppliers that are maybe partnering with you, you know, even consumers being considered stakeholders that it's like, as long as the shareholder profit reports are good, we're good. We're doing well, and like that's not the case. Because like that measurement to me is so broken, of that means you're doing well. It leaves out so many parts, because in my mind, you're doing well, if you have a really healthy, like relationship with the environment, as you produce your product or service, you are really looking at how to build people up both your employees, your suppliers, even your consumers, and customers, that you have great employee retention. All of those things measure success, but they're just not like this pinnacle of success, which is money, profit, shareholder returns. I think actually, Dan Price who I follow on Instagram, he's the CEO of Gravity Payments. His handle is @DanPriceSeattle. And he talks a lot about this lack of redistribution, and this kind of like smoke and mirrors that goes on with like, you know, companies being like, well, like, we can't increase employee wages because of inflation, and everything's so expensive. But then you're seeing like their shareholder returns and their CEO bonuses like were the biggest they've ever been this year. But they can't, you know, increase, you know, the bottom line, sorry, the lowest like annual wage, they can't provide more benefits. Like there's just a lot of like, what's that word? Like that sleight of hand kind of game, where they're saying like, no, no, we couldn't possibly do that, because we're suffering too. But it's like about which decisions you make. So

Romina: And it's all relative, right? Like, oh, I can't afford a private jet. But like my low end employees can't afford like, food for their family. Right? Like, is a very extreme example. But it's just like, it's all relative. And it kind of reminds me also the concept of like, how we technically have enough, like, we produce enough food in the world so that nobody has to go hungry. And it's all about just like, redistribution. It's not that we need more of anything necessarily, like we already have it, it's just redistributing it, so that it's more equitable.

Hannah: Yeah. And I mean, you know, I think sometimes people get scared of this concept of redistribution of wealth, because they, you know, these conversations of, you know, political beliefs, various political beliefs come into this space. And, you know, we're not necessarily speaking to that concept of like, socialism, and, you know, that kind of thing, but it's more so these decisions that a lot of these companies can be made quite easily, you know, again, going back to Dan Price, I'm a big fan of his, and he's gotten his lowest wage they pay annually, I think is $80,000. Like, that's huge! And he speaks to how that has only increased their employee retention, which means that they're not spending money in acquisition of new employees, which

Romina: is or training or that all just things that comes along with it, right. Yeah

Hannah: Which is more expensive than retaining an employee which you know, so there are ways to do this. There are like lots of companies out there who are doing what we're talking about here. It's just like, how do we help all companies move into that direction? Yeah, into that direction and not feel like they're failing, because they're not matching this, like, this model of success of like the billionaire narrative of like the Tesla's and the Amazon's of the world, where it's like, if you are, if your CEO or your founder is a billionaire, you've done a good job. I just think there's that's too too simplified of a narrative. And it's not working for the greater good.

Romina: Yeah, there's, there's good ones within that. Yeah. I guess like to kind of move away about our, from our pet peeves, and more into, you know, what we can envision as a better future. Because like we mentioned, we'll talk a little bit of the doom and gloom, but we also want to focus on what we can do. And I think, like, I'll start off with sort of, like, my personal vision is that I think it is possible, I think we are moving into that direction. Because although the current systems are supporting and feeding into like the 1%, and all of them to continue growing their wealth. There's, like power in numbers, like there's so much more of us on the other end, that collectively, if we work together, if we speak up, if we have those conversations in our businesses, as business owners, within your workplace, things can change, right? Like, I can't remember what Amazon factory, I don't know what it's technically called or warehouse, where they unionized. And they're able to now they have more power as a collective. And I think as a collective, we can do better, like, when people talk about the environment, and it's like, oh, well, it's just one coffee cup, single use coffee cup, but if we all collectively reduced one, that's billions of coffee cups around the world, right? So there is power in numbers. And I definitely see that changing. I think, especially with our generation with Gen Z and other future generations, because we are talking about these issues sooner when they're younger, and they're more aware, it's a catalyst for change. I don't know if we'll see it in our lifetime, but I think we're on that path and that it is possible.

Hannah: I totally agree. And like, when you think about how many billions of people are on this planet, I know that there is that constant argument between like the individual versus corporations, and we are very well aware that corporations play a big, big, or the very the larger corporations.

Romina: And individuals wearing those corporations

Hannah: Yes, and individuals can make a difference, especially when you're talking about consuming, you know, on a large scale, they come together make a big difference. And I think you mentioned this the other day, when we know like the concept of the vegan vegetarian movement of how

Romina: much availability of those foods at restaurants now is at every restaurant, there's solely restaurants or pop ups that only serve vegan and vegetarian food.

Hannah: Yeah, and that was from a groundswell of 

Romina: People demanding it.

Hannah: People demanding it because they were shifting in their lifestyle and, and the restaurants having to respond to that demand. So there is like, so much strength in numbers. And I also think like in on my end, my personal vision for a better future is just this concept of like a better quality of life, for the majority, you know, using workplaces, businesses, as a conduit to increase quality of life for everyone. So not just, you know, redistribution of wealth, very much something that I think, in our current society is very important. It's how we pay rent, it's how we keep a roof over our head. It's how we feed ourselves, pay our bills, all of that. But it's not just about that. It's about workplaces addressing diverse needs of individuals, rather than expecting everyone to fit into like this one set of experience or this one experience that like, going back to what you spoke about earlier, maybe focuses very much on a white masculine experience of life

Romina: In the world. Yep,

Hannah: In the world and not one that includes a range of you know, neurodiverency, introverts and extroverts people with all scales of abilities, all different backgrounds like, what makes sense lifestyles 

Romina: And lifestyles. 

Hannah: And lifestyles, yeah.

Romina: Yeah, right. Like I feel like that's a thing that came out of COVID is like, people who work from home or who have that privilege to work from home. It's I can do laundry, and work at the same time. It's like, or like, being able to pause at a certain time because my kids or kids have to come home or stuff like that. It's just like, accommodating for people's different lifestyles. While letting them have the ability and also the power to get the work done or do their jobs and accommodate all that instead of forcing people to work nine to five.

Hannah: Yeah, to work in one way because like the beauty of humanity is that like, the reason that things move forward is because people bring different perspectives. And those sort of perspectives come from us all growing up differently. Us like coming from different cultural backgrounds, from us having different ways that like, we work neurologically as having just different experiences of how we move through the world in our bodies. That is what allows us to come together and like shift perspectives and like it is what I would imagine a lot of people listening to this when they've experienced a really great brainstorming session at work or a really great meeting. That was because diverse voices you know, were

Romina: Given the opportunity

Hannah: Yeah, well, that as well but like, why are we benefiting from this diversity of of humaneness? But then expecting all those same people to fit into the same like, box and structure? And I think, bringing in this idea of like how we can still thrive and produce and profit because we're not against profiting. We just like when the profit shared appropriately. You can still do all that while respecting that people have different needs. And yeah, I mean, I just think there's, we can use work to really level up all of the of life for multiple people for the majority, and really close that gap between people who are living much more comfortably than they need to be. And those who are struggling while still working, like the maximum number of hours a week that they possibly can make these people can't

Romina: Given the opportunity.

Hannah: Yeah, they can't physically give any more of not only is it not sustainable, they don't physically have more time to get, you know, while still needing to sleep, which is like a huge human necessity. And yet they're not getting where they need to get to, to live in this world, with the cost of living that we have and as it increases. So, yeah, I mean, we'll talk a lot about how difficult it is to as you mentioned before Romina, work within the system that you're also railing against at the same time. But that's how anything has ever changed. People have spoken up, stood up and said, I don't like this can we do it differently? And then have gotten together in groups and said, how can we do it differently? Let's think about it. Let's take everyone's different perspectives, and then let's move forward. And yeah, we might not see the fruits of our labor in our lifetime because systems this large take a long time to change. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Romina: Yeah, and I think it's important something that kind of like popped up as you were speaking there is everyone's going to tackle this issue differently. The same way that not everyone is going to go out and protest. You kind of like picking your lane and figuring out how you can best contribute. Again, going back to your individual self is like if working nine to five and doing it within your job is the best way, do it there. If it's through your business. if it's hiring purchases, if it's like whatever it is and within your role and with who you are as an individual is play to your strengths and figuring it out through that. Because again, we're not trying to create another box for somebody else to fit into you to create your own box in whatever shape you want it to be. Right? So yeah, I just want to I guess wrap up a little bit. And just let everyone know that through this first season of this podcast. We're really going to break down from the larger issues that we have brought up in this intro, intro episode and turn it into more approachable, action oriented solutions that we can all take collectively together. And again, as individuals or as solopreneurs, within your businesses, as an employee and offering suggestions in ways that you can maybe bring up these conversations and we'll also explore really understanding the fundamentals. Sticking to your values, maybe even figuring out what your values are if you don't already know or just revisiting them because they do grow and change as we move forward in our lives. And then building accessible marketing plans is something that you are able to do, creating inclusive workplaces and much more. So we understand that changing a system again, working within that system is very, very tricky. And you're not alone. So please join us in our Slack community. We'll have a link in our show notes. And then yeah, you can join us on our next episode while we talk about why we care where to start and sort of the fundamentals when it comes to environmental and social responsibility.

Hannah: Yes, please do join us for our next episode and for the rest of the season. And also, please subscribe and leave us a review. It really helps. And we'd love to hear from you as well. What do you want to hear about? What are your challenges? As much as you know, we've been in this space for a while and we've seen the themes crop up. The whole point of this is like we're building a community, strength in numbers. So if you have a challenge, please reach out. We'll leave contact details in the show notes. And we'd really love to hear from you. Thanks so much for listening!

Romina: We want to know, like introduce yourself to us and tell us what your pet peeves are in this space. 

Hannah: Yes. 

Romina: We would love to know. Spark that conversation between our like group. 

Hannah: Yes, definitely. 

Romina: Well, thank you for listening.

Hannah: Bye everyone!